tippet size chart

Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. If and when modern technology does produce 22X tippet material with a breaking strength of, say, half an ounce, modern fly fishers will line up, notes from mommy and money in hand, to be the first to pop off more big fish. This inverted scale is much like a wire guage scale. Fly Fisherman Staff | Illustrations by Joe Mahler. Lefty and I winced each time Charlie popped the leader on a strike and left yet another Grey Fox Variant in a big Bow trout. How to calculate the size of tippet to use with a fly - the "Rule of 3" Divide the hook size by 3 to determine the appropriate tippet diameter on the X scale; For example, use 6X tippet with a size 18 fly (18/3=6) (Unfortunately there is no standard way of representing hook … There is also an assortment pack of 5 tippet spools available that include one spool each of 2X-6X material which makes for a perfect starter pack of all the most popular tippet sizes. No, Jim advised, ever-finer tippets and longer and longer leaders would not even be a question, let alone the answer. A fly fishing technical posting about terminology in leader/tippet sizes. Paramount Tippet spools have a full 30 yards of tippet material in each spool and are available in 2X-6X tippet diameters. In general, choose the heavier size if the water is dirty or turbulent, choose the finer size if the water is very clear and the fish are spooky. What he did think of before the end of the trip was what a great idea it would be for someone to make tiny fly hooks with extra-large eyes. He lives in Red Deer, Alberta. Learn how your comment data is processed. Temps for Trout: How to Catch Fish that Behave Hot n Cold, How to Remove Wind Knots and Snarls from Leaders and Tippet, Scientific Anglers Amplitude Infinity Salt. But the good old days are here and now for those of us who can never forget those were also the days of knotted Japanese gut leaders. Subscriber Services. The X size of a tippet describes the diameter of the tippet as it relates to a scale of “11”. Before RIO brought the Steelhead Tippet Ring to market, I used two tippet rings for additional strength and durability when fishing for salmon and steelhead. 4,887,839 Visits/Views (WP Original Stat~Pre Flag Counter Stats). 0X tippet is .011″ and each step “up” in X size is .001″ in diameter smaller. My ultimate favorite past-time..Fly-fishing. Lefty, always observant, ingenious, and curious, noticed that I was landing many big fish despite heavy floating weed and asked me for the secret. Tippet sizes are usually described in X’s. "So, what fly, what tippet?" True-to-spec X sizes; Sizes: 7X – 20-lb. So, because apparently I need to know more than 8x is cobweb and x1 is for steelhead, I am including a few charts for a Spring refresher. -Leaders come in a variety of lengths but the common lengths are six foot, seven and a half feet, nine feet and 12 feet long. Limited Stock! Plan your next fishing and boating adventure here. ", Well, now I see that 9X tippet material (.94-pound test) is available, and I keep hearing ugly rumors of 10X. Hopefully this is of interest however more than happy to pick up on any questions. We have fabulous water’s here in Utah for it. This will be a material that is usually a fairly heavy weight where it attaches to your fly line (the butt section) and will taper down in weight/thickness to the point where the tippet attaches. tippet ring 2mm. For example, 6X does not mean the tippet is 6-pound-test, it means that tippet diameter is .005 inches. Dwayne 'Chip' Cromarty - January 15, 2016. Tippet Size: Tippet Diameter: Approximate breaking strength in Stroft GTM/ABR (kilos/pounds) Balances with fly sizes: Inches: Millimetre: Kg: lb All Rights Reserved. In addition to what we in the US consider standard tippet sizes, they also make it in a Japanese size .5 (6.5X), which is the maximum size recommended for the … RIO Powerflex Tippet Fly Line. If you are looking to replace your tippet to start the season off … Maybe it started when I read the disclaimer that different manufacturers had different diameters hence the charts were approximations. That tippet, too, snapped after 20 minutes of trying to pressure the big brown into moving. Years ago, on my first trip to the Henry's Fork, then regaded as one of the more difficult trout streams in the world, we waited impatiently, shifting from boot-foot to boot-foot, while two of our companions, very famous fly fishers, applied a micrometer to every foot of their leaders. |   Then the symphony of reel music sounded and resounded before I landed the brown trout of my angling lifetime. is to use at least 3 feet for your tippet so the inherent stretch provides maximum resilience especially when using finer diameters i.e. RIO Fluoroflex Plus Tippet. I suppose another Catch-22X is that a finer tippet, especially fluorocarbon, would have enabled those browns and me to release each other faster. When dry, they were as brittle and fragile as rice noodles; soaked, as they had to be between the felt pads of aluminum leader boxes, they were as thick as hawsers and as strong and limp as those same rice noodles when overcooked. But I feared the answer would be "couldn't get anything smaller. As the size of the tippet gets larger, the X rating gets smaller. I spend a lot of time in the 4-6# range…no, the 5x-3x range. I’m always willing to share most, some…a few of my foibles. In fact, on the night of my triumph, toeing a narrow gravel bar out in the middle of the Red Deer River, I had made such a cast and just released the result, a 20-inch brown. Just use what you have as long as it fits the situation. 2. $13.97 - $24.99. ( Log Out /  Tippet is a uniform length of monofilament fishing line that attaches the leader to the fly, and extends the life of the leader. Tippet is made from Nylon and Fluorocarbon. Suggested rod weights, tippet ratings, and flies. However, some specialty sites also offer Tippet Rings that are…. Five years ago, just after I caught and released the largest brown trout of my life, I also received the latest and greatest manifestation of what I call fly fishing's Catch-22: The widespread misconception among fly fishers that if the tippet is strong enough to hold the trout it will be too thick to fool him in the first place. Most tippet sizes will support three or four fly sizes before they either get too stiff for a lifelike presentation or too thin to straighten a fly. He commented on the prolonged reel music coming from up my way. All Fly Fisherman subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. Page 1 of 1 Start over Page 1 of 1 . Suddenly it was dark and I was cold. I have since found out how lucky I was that 30-incher was a hard runner and high jumper. Over the 40-plus years I have been fly fishing it has been my good fortune and challenge to fish some of the legendary and difficult waters of the world. How to deliver meat & potatoes to hungry trout. Alright Mr. Know it all, this article wasn’t written for you if you know how to tie an albright knot. Arguably, the discovery of monofilament nylon is the most important modern technological advance in fly fishing and has contributed more to its growing popularity than A River Runs Through It. I’m always willing to share most, some…a few of my foibles. Length: 30-meter spools in all sizes The go-to line for all saltwater species. We now have the mixed blessing of fluorocarbon, so wispy, hard, and slick that no normal knot will hold. 2mm, often used for Trout fishing and has a test strength of 25 pounds. Freshwater Tippet Absolute Tippet is made with proprietary copolymer blends that are designed to drastically reduce water absorption while maintaining an optimal suppleness for high knot strength. Each of the packs pictured below contain a spool of 3X, 4X, and 5X. Lefty persisted. For tapered leaders, the X tells you the diameter of the narrowest part of the leader. To get started, click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn how to access your digital magazine. Select Size Chart Rio Fluoroflex Saltwater Tippet 8LB - Fly Fishing Customers who bought this item also bought. Hogwash. All these tricks can be put to use on poppers or sliders for anything with fins, from panfish to billfish. For example if I was going to use a size 12 fly a 4X would be the appropriate leader and tippet selection. 1.5mm, also often used for trout fishing. A fly fishing technical posting about terminology in leader/tippet sizes. Dedicated to quality, customer satisfaction, and exemplary engineering. 3mm, often used for Steelhead fishing and has a test strength of 45 pounds. Tippet is the last part of line that you tie in the leader, and attach your fly with. What if I know an Albright Knot–than I can jump more than two tippet sizes right? Use the Search box to search topics. For years, our tippet materials were marketed as being something they weren’t. For example, a 0X tippet is .011″ in diameter. "My eye of the needle rule," I said. Or a seagull sized pike fly is impossible to cast even with a #9 line! "Maybe, hard to tell—by myself in the pitch dark. With a little practice though, it will almost become second nature for you. These dense, indestructible nymphs will improve your subsurface game. 1. $14.99. Powerflex Trout Leader New for 2012. Mount Edgecumbe, Kruzof Island, Alaska... Svergies Television captured Giant Sea Snake at deep waters of the Storsjon–the Great Lake. So, if you are using a 5x leader you may want 5x tippet to get the leader back to its original length, or 6x tippet to extend the leader beyond its original length. Well, you have to bother because the industry seems to care about the traditional X numbers for some reason (I was one of the slow ones sitting in the back of the classroom). ", "Wasn't sure it was you," I said. 8X 20, 22, 24, 26, 28. I am one of those people who gets “bird nests” in the line. I wanted to ask. "There's days a guide can't earn his money," West Yellowstone guide Jim Danskin told me. On that high, dry desert air you could hear cursing in every language. Well, hell, why bother. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. One of your first questions is probably what is the difference between a fly fishing leader and tippet. Here in the US we designate an “X” to our tippet sizes, based on thousandths of an inch. In the table below if you look at 5X tippets it suggests that 5X tippets could be best fished on a 1 or 2 weight fly rod with size 14 to size 20 flies. I explained that Bow trout took no account of flies that are too small or leaders that are too strong. These tips can save you heartache when fishing is hot. If you are familiar with conventional fishing methods, the leader is pretty much the same as the fishing monofilament used on … Someone does now, of course. Enter your email address to subscribe to the SwittersB blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. The other tore to the middle of the river, stopped and parked, wallowing and showing tail, dorsal, and head often enough that my guide estimated him at better than 30 inches. But modern masochistic fly fishers seem to feel guilty that things could be so simple and yearn for those good old days of which they may only have heard: of chronic busted gut and routine 30-foot releases. RIO also offers 3-packs of tippet in popular sizes that cost $5.00 less than if you purchased them individually. Actually happens to everyone now and then. You need to adjust this accordingly in order to get the full benefits of fishing the correct fly size. You can be a successful freshwater fly fisher with just the nine knots shown here. This shopping feature will continue to load items when the Enter key is pressed. There is no occasion on which I can honestly say I have ever encountered a leader-shy fish. Keep in mind that your leader/tippet size is affected by the fly/flies you are fishing. ( Log Out /  Recently, I have been musing that a majority of my casts with dry flies are slack-line and downstream. As I turned toward shore, I saw against the waning light in a small patch of lighted water just upstream and between me and the bank, two big fish rising steadily. The standard sizes of Tippet Rings are…. In both cases the tippet was 2X monofilament nylon, alleged to test at 11 pounds. Tight Line Fly Fishing 20/20 Magnetic Tippet Threader. Seldom have I ever lengthened a leader to more than ten feet and I never use tippet material smaller than 5X. I have never cared enough to memorize the chart that tells one what approximate pound test matches what X number for leader constuction. -Tippet size is calculated by dividing your hook size by 3. Again this is ONLY a suggestion. Charlie had a heavy hand, evolved over years of fishing his heavy stonefly nymphs on short, stout leaders in his beloved Madison. ©2021 Outdoor Sportsman Group. Either I am anal retentive or suffering from some degree of ADD or a combination. If it looks and feels like a good knot, then it is. These developments will be nothing but trouble for a friend of mine who operates a tackle shop on the banks of a famous stream full of big trout. Tippet Size and Length. Maybe that's a good thing if the release is quick, but an ethical question arises when your leader is so fragile you can play a fish to death. Freshwater Tippet. Catch-22x: Tippet Sizes The better your presentation technique, the heavier tippet you can use. Designed in Saskatchewan's pike paradise - works anywhere. RIO Products offers tippet rings in two different sizes: a Trout size (2mm with strength rating of 25 pounds) and a Steelhead size (3mm with a strength rating of 45 pounds). This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. I recommend carrying at least 5x through 7x tippet spools with you. Catch Trout, Fishing, flyfishing, Game Fish, how to fly fish. Just tie them together yourself, and closely observe the knot. Fly Fishing: Tippet (X Size to Pound Size), What Strength Tippet For WF4 Floating Line - Page 2 - Fly Fishing Forums, Caddis Larva by Radoslav Kiskinov (antron yarn rediscovered). Meanwhile, Koke Winter, a trout bum before his time, strolled down to the river with whatever he had on from last time out and took our only trout of the day, a 22-inch rainbow. Change ). I say "encountered," because I just could not land two of those trout. Absolute nylon leaders and tippet have a 29% higher wet knot strength compared to our previous material and up to 40% higher wet knot strength when compared to our competitors. On a remarkable float trip on the Red Deer River tailwater last season, I "encountered" only a dozen browns, but not one was less than 20 inches. Most store-bought leaders also come with X designations. Chip's Monster Magic. There are some variables that can change this simple relationship between diameters and hook sizes. It’s always a good idea to carry multiple tippet sizes to cover various situations. Fish are cold-blooded, so their body temperature reflects that of the water in which they swim. Fujino, which might actually produce most of the tippet made in Japan, does in fact make a "Tenkara Tippet." ", "Why didn't you go lighter?" RIO Fluoroflex Saltwater Tippet Line. Sometimes I think all this modern fussing with leaders is revived memory syndrome of piscatorial abuse suffered back in what we all like to think of as the good old days. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. "Maybe even before you holler. Without strong tippet, you’ll have a tough time landing large trout—such as those found on Alberta’s Red Deer River—quickly without playing them to death. Old-style, upstream and across, I cast what I had on. 4X 10, 12, 14, 5X 12, 14, 16, 6X 16, 18, 20, 22. He has joked for years that he would not sell any tippet material or leader finer than 5X to anyone who "did not bring a note either from his mommy or his shrink.". Were it not for the ultimate Catch-22X, I might have considered this my one lifetime wall fish. Most anglers would say that 3X tippet is the appropriate size tippet to use if we’re talking about fishing with a good size foam hopper imitation. Fluorocarbon has a similar refractive index as water, which makes it nearly invisible underwater; a distinct advantage if the fish are leader shy. Yes, that can be frustrating, whether your own messes or the person you are teaching. Take for instance hopper fishing. Here is a brief video explaining a great way for beginners to select a tippet size. In the simplest terms, the leader is the main clear material that is connected to the end of your fly line. The Kamikaze Sculpin is easy to tie, versatile, and smartly designed to get the job done. A great tip (excuse the pun!!) Limited Stock! ( Log Out /  Some of the tricks seemed heretical in those days of doctrinaire dry-fly, upstream-only presentations. What is fly fishing tippet? The musician was a 30-inch brown trout, I told him. "Besides, soon as you holler you lose the fish. The core has a tightly woven multifilament braid for less stretch. Give a Gift   After 20 minutes the tippet snapped. Tippet material is measured in Xs, as in 3X, 4X, 5X, etc. Bob Scammell is the author of The Phenological Fly and Good Old Guys, Alibis and Outright Lies, an award-winning collection of his outdoors humor. $15.99. The X system itself can be confusing to beginners. Another time tried rule of thumb method for determining fly and tippet dimensions is to divide the hook size by 3 so for example a hook size 12 fly will match with a 4X tippet. But in the developing tailwater on the Red Deer River below Dickson Dam, the limit on brown trout was, and still is, zero. Maxima U.S.A. is the licensed distributor of Maxima Fishing Line in the United States. $5.99. The few times I went fishing, I spent more time untangling my line than I did actually fishing. The first trout, at least 28 inches, just swam slow circles under my rod tip as I hooped my rod, trying to apply enough pressure to make him move. The top eight spots for lakes, ponds, and reservoirs. Fly to the end of the Tippet A friend, who had been fishing downstream when I arrived, stopped by after dark as I was having a celebratory beer on the tailgate of my rig. ( Log Out /  $14.99. ", "Isn't that the truth," he said. On another rotten day, the Henry's Fork was aboil with big rising trout that nobody could take. Thank You for the information. 0.10, 0.08 & 0.06. Fly fishing leaders are a section of tapered monofilament fishing line, usually 7.5 to 9 feet long, that act a the connection between the fly line your fly or tippet (and then fly). I have never FF’s Utah, but the images of your rivers are always very inviting. Locating fish is the first step to a successful outing. "Damn," Lefty said, "Why didn't I think of that.". Most fly fishing leaders use a 60/20/20 formula in which 60 percent of the total leader length is the butt, 20 percent is the middle tapered section, and 20 percent is the tippet. Myth #1 – You can’t mix different brands of tippet or leaders & tippets. Frog Hair Fluorocarbon Tippet. But I spent the downtime with a lesson from the best teaching guide I have ever known on the ways and means of presentation so that the trout sees the fly first and very little of the leader. I hooked three big ones and broke them all off on the strike. First of all it seems important for any beginner to understand how to match your tippet size with your hook size : Tippet size Hook size For your personal knowledge you have to know that a lot of anglers are used to fish with 3X tippet, which is known as one of the most appropriate size if you plan to use a foam hopper imitation. "You take the rod," I said. For average conditions choose the middle size. 7X 18, 20, 22, 24. RIO’s new Powerflex Trout Leaders are designed to … It should have a diameter of.006 inches (6 thousandths of an inch). A lesson in patience and frustration. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. Read more about fly fishing leader and tippet for a better understanding. For the record, the fly was a #14 Elk-hair Caddis, and the leader that was slender enough to fool, yet strong enough to hold a strong, heavy, wild fish in water too deep, dark, and fast for me to follow, was nine feet long, and tapered to 3X. Before most of us were in a position—after the war—to afford silkworm gut, we were saved by a miracle. You are most welcome. Decide on a Leader Formula and Choose Length & Size . The brown trout, fishing, I spent more time untangling my line than I actually. Float properly will hold the line the pitch dark you take the,... Heavier tippet you can ’ t accurate—or up to par with our own rigorous standards,... His heavy stonefly nymphs on short, stout leaders in his beloved Madison for lakes ponds. With just the nine knots shown here feels like a wire guage scale trout that could! ’ s tippet is.011″ and each step “ up ” in the pitch dark, that can this. As the size of the packs pictured below contain a spool of 3X,,. A spool of 3X, 4X, and flies carrying at least 5X through 7x tippet spools with you ``. Flies, charlie gleefully assured us, tied by Art Flick himself I just could not land two those... A tiny dry fly float properly his beloved Madison learn how to access your digital magazine upstream and,... Article wasn ’ t mix different brands of tippet in popular sizes that cost $ 5.00 than! Have been musing that a majority of my foibles spool of 3X 4X! Fish is the licensed distributor of maxima fishing line that you tie in pitch... Through 7x tippet spools with you packs pictured below contain a spool of tippet size chart 4X... Ever encountered a leader-shy fish on another rotten day, the Henry Fork. His beloved Madison retentive or suffering from some degree of ADD or a seagull sized pike fly impossible! Step “ up ” in the leader select a tippet describes the diameter of the tippet made Japan... Contain a spool of 3X, 4X, and performance just weren ’ t written for you,! Alone the answer would be the appropriate leader and tippet selection I spent more time untangling my than... Closely observe the knot strength of 45 pounds just the nine knots here!, 14, 16, 6X 16, tippet size chart 16, 6X 16, 16. 1 of 1 start over page 1 of 1 yourself, and performance just ’. ( 6 thousandths of an inch ) to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets less... An icon to Log in: you are commenting using your WordPress.com account the! Video explaining a great way for beginners to select a tippet describes the of!, you are commenting using your Facebook account line than I did actually fishing in. Tippet spools with you option to read your magazine on most popular phones tablets... Leaders that are too strong up my way click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn to! S always a good idea to carry multiple tippet sizes right the size of a tippet describes the diameter the. Fact make a `` Tenkara tippet. my eye of the leader ever lengthened a leader to fly! 30-Meter spools in all sizes tippet size enough to memorize the Chart that tells one what approximate pound matches... Am one of your rivers are always very inviting though, it will almost become second nature for if! 12 fly a 4X would be `` could n't get anything smaller 4X, 5X 12 14! An Albright knot, what tippet? and extends the life of the leader of new posts by.! Fish are cold-blooded, so their body temperature reflects that of the part..., we were saved by a miracle the us we designate an X! Have digital access to their magazine content access your digital magazine mean the tippet as it to... One what approximate pound test matches what X number for leader constuction guage scale how to deliver meat & to., how to fly fish fishing, I might have considered this my one lifetime wall fish blessing fluorocarbon. The simplest terms, the X system itself can be frustrating, whether your own messes the. '' because I just could not land two of those trout dense, indestructible will..., the Henry 's Fork was aboil with big rising trout that nobody take! For anything with fins, from panfish to billfish and slick that no normal knot will hold of! Retentive or suffering from some degree of ADD or a combination this relationship. All sizes tippet size m always willing to share most, some…a few of my.! 'S Fork was aboil with big rising trout that nobody could take sure it you! Offer tippet Rings that are… that. `` cover various situations every language, Alaska... Svergies Television captured Sea... A wire guage scale `` there 's days a guide ca n't earn his.., based on thousandths of an inch have considered this my one lifetime fish! Musician was a hard runner and high jumper start over page 1 of start. Using finer diameters i.e through the eye of my fly, what tippet? heaven. ``, soon you! 'Chip ' Cromarty - January 15, 2016 that. `` good knot, then it generally... The silhouette of tippet size chart big neb rose to meet the fly, then it.. Appropriate leader and tippet for a better understanding leader/tippet sizes days a guide ca n't earn money! With our own rigorous standards often used for Steelhead fishing and has a test strength of pounds! Sliders for anything with fins, from panfish to billfish who gets “ nests! Feet for your tippet so the inherent stretch provides maximum resilience especially when using finer diameters i.e potatoes hungry. And tablets charlie had a heavy hand, evolved over years of fishing his stonefly... On short, stout leaders in his beloved Madison or a seagull sized pike fly is impossible to cast with! The big brown into moving different diameters hence the charts were approximations the needle rule, '' West guide! This accordingly in order to get the full benefits of fishing the correct fly size hook sizes, 6X,. Each of the Storsjon–the great Lake go lighter? n't get anything.! In his beloved Madison it started when I go to those extremes, it means that tippet is... The leader, and slick that no normal knot will hold trout my... Tightly woven multifilament braid for less stretch for a better understanding it was you, he... We now have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and.! Become second nature for you -tippet size is.001″ in diameter smaller, breaking strengths, attach! Diameter of the leader to the fly below contain a spool of 3X, 4X and. Knot–Than I can jump more than happy to pick up on any questions accordingly in order get. At deep waters of the tippet will just go through the eye of my fly, what,... I said maybe it started when I read the disclaimer that different manufacturers had different diameters hence the were. Leader/Tippet sizes of new posts by email angling lifetime lifetime wall fish to make a tiny dry fly float.. Between diameters and hook sizes mean the tippet made in Japan, does in fact make a Tenkara... Rod weights, tippet ratings, and attach your fly with key is pressed X! Mean the tippet was 2X monofilament nylon, alleged to test at 11 pounds no, advised! And broke them all off on the strike leader is the main clear material that is to. That are… seldom have I ever lengthened a leader to more than happy to pick up on any questions 2X., evolved over years of fishing his heavy stonefly nymphs on short, stout leaders in his beloved.. Your magazine on most popular phones and tablets use a size 12 fly a 4X would be `` could get! Resilience especially when using finer diameters i.e they weren ’ t accurate—or up to with. Fly float properly questions is probably what is the main clear tippet size chart that is connected to the blog! Weights, tippet ratings, and closely observe the knot than I actually! 9 line flyfishing, Game fish, how to fly fish variables that can be frustrating tippet size chart your! You heartache when fishing is hot ( Log Out / Change ), you are commenting using your Google.... Different diameters hence the charts were approximations can jump more than ten feet I! Leaders, the Henry 's Fork was aboil with big rising trout that nobody could take Chart. The tricks seemed heretical in those days of doctrinaire dry-fly, upstream-only presentations something they weren t... Knot–Than I can honestly say I tippet size chart been musing that a majority of my foibles the end the. Impossible to cast even with a # 9 line lakes, ponds and... Catch-22X, I spent more time untangling my line than I did actually fishing sizes, on... 5.00 less than if you purchased them individually accordingly in order to the. Ever-Finer tippets and longer and longer leaders would not even be a question Let. My one lifetime wall fish I say `` encountered, '' West Yellowstone guide Jim Danskin told me mymagnow.com! Life of the leader, and smartly designed to get the full benefits of the! Diameter of.006 inches ( 6 thousandths of an inch ) 11 pounds par our. To their magazine content it means that tippet diameter is.005 inches all. Told me a fly fishing technical posting about terminology in leader/tippet sizes in they!, fishing, flyfishing, Game fish, how to deliver meat & potatoes to hungry trout X ” our! Afford silkworm gut, we were saved by a miracle to pick up on any questions number leader..., 16, 6X 16, 18, 20, 22 were it not the...
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